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 Fuck "Eat the rich" 
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Joined: 17 Dec 2009, 23:59
Posts: 259
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"
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Quote:
Interesting- to me it's about my freedom, my values, and my self control. I will not bow down before any collective.

You guys are egoist and selfish. You only care about yourself and you don't give a fuck if someone is dying of hunger while you and other peoples have way enough money to live.

Your mentality makes me want to puke.

Quote:
I want to wheel and deal with individuals, I do not want to be a cog in your machine.

What machine ? You don't even know what you are talking about. You already accept to be part of a machine where you are being exploited and underpaid, why wouldn't you accept to be part of a "machine" where you decide yourself instead of having someone to do it for you, and where you have more freedom in your work... And on top of all, you will get paid more

You say you care about your freedom, well anarchism is the highest expression of freedom.... Definatly you are brainwashed, USA LAND OF THE FREE EH

to you equality would be tyranny, thats just stupid.

You are nothing but capitalists

Quote:
really, well then maybe you should tell me where full laissez-faire Capitalism has been implemented.

Capitalism is not only liberalism.

You're an american and you pretend your country is not capitalist, that's one of the most stupid things i heard in my whole life.

Debate with you guys is useless, start by learning what capitalism is.

Quote:
i never said thinking something is unfair makes you a tyrant. i said using force to take away someone else's property does.

lol so we have the right to have ideas, but no right to apply them. You're a typical brainwashed american.

Yeah we are tyrans, we are tyrans against the tyrans, tyrans against the bourgeoisie. I can assume that.

Peoples who brought your liberties were tyrans too, they had to fight for what they believe in. So i guess the whole fucking story of your country is tyranny.

I hope you lose your job because your boss move the shop to china, and then that you can't pay your house and food anymore, then maybe you will get a cancer but can't have the treatment because you don't have the money.... And then, you will realize what capitalism is all about.

And then i hope that no one help you to pay your medical bills because after all, it's better to prioritize personnal interests before collective interests.

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20 Feb 2010, 08:10
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Joined: 11 Feb 2010, 21:23
Posts: 33
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

Ungovernable is a funny name for you. It doesn't add up.

You are assigning ethical values to me while you don't know me...at all.

Equality at gunpoint would indeed be tyranny.

I'll let that other guy field the questions that you posed to him. You are in over your head, my friend.


20 Feb 2010, 08:20
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Korea, Republic Of

Joined: 12 Feb 2010, 03:30
Posts: 47
Location: South Korea
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

Quote:
lol so we have the right to have ideas, but no right to apply them. You're a typical brainwashed american.

Yeah we are tyrans, we are tyrans against the tyrans, tyrans against the bourgeoisie. I can assume that.

Peoples who brought your liberties were tyrans too, they had to fight for what they believe in. So i guess the whole fucking story of your country is tyranny.


I am curious, do you have any regard for the American founding fathers? They were Libertarian and essentially trying to fulfill the closest thing to your ideals that has ever been done, minus that collectivist bullshit part.

You should leave punk rock and join the Communist Party if this is all about politics for you.

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20 Feb 2010, 09:00
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Joined: 15 Jan 2010, 19:37
Posts: 55
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

i dont hate all rich people ....
i hate only rich people that
Exploit working class ....
Exploit women and children to work 12h for them for lame pay... (Nike, Addidas Coca-Cola managers...)
That pay 1million euros so their stupid son which killed 2 people while he was driving with 2%o Alcohol in blood or which was caught with 100g of drugs...
that think that they can buy all
that buy some factory to wash money and then fire 470 of 500 workers...
that dont respect people by deeds more than clothing
that
that have "blue blood" .... as they wanna call it....

Well that only mean that i dont hate that 5-10 guys from working class that won the lottery and still working and have same old friends....

and T-shits.... DIY or DIE ! (i didnt forget R)
(doesnt mean u dont have to support forum but that kind of shirt is ment to be made by yourslef... and others are cool but i cant afford shipping :D )

and EAT THE RICH BEFORE THEY EAT YOU !

i didnt saw who made Topic but can he answer me does he know any1 who earn A LOT of money fair and by not dragging others down...?

and do u wanna 1 reason why i hate rich ?
-this year i have to do 100% test so i can get in state budget for collage (that isnt problem im used to work for everything i ever get...)
BUT last year some inspection found out that some daddy`s sons BOUGHT diplomas
for money even tough they didnt even saw building where will i go 5 years for that same diploma....

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20 Feb 2010, 15:58
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Joined: 11 Feb 2010, 21:23
Posts: 33
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

pathRIOT wrote:


i didnt saw who made Topic but can he answer me does he know any1 who earn A LOT of money fair and by not dragging others down...?

....


pathriot- I made the topic. Yes, I know lots of people who have made a lot of money by trading goods and services for an agreed-upon wage. Not only have they not dragged others down, they have actually lifted others up through employment and investment.


20 Feb 2010, 16:35
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Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

1) Lol, Bobby is a selfish asshole because he cares about his freedom. Classic. I have to admit that sounds like a great theme for propaganda for an aspiring tyrant trying to keep his subjects in line.

2) I don't think you have evidence to suggest that Bobby is exploited or accepting of it. It's more likely that he made a deal with an employer because it benefits him, it's worth it. Hence the reason why true laissez-faire capitalism is the antithesis of exploitation: unless an uninformed party makes a mistake, all those voluntary interactions are, as Bobby's most recent post accurately portrays, mutually beneficial.

3) Anarchy as in self-rule would indeed be a very high expression of freedom, but that's not what I have the biggest problem with. My beef is with communism, and initiation of force upon any group of innocent people... things very far from self-rule that some like to dress up and call it anarchy.

4) I don't need to pretend anything, the US is not even close to an example of pure capitalism. Google 'mixed economy' please... it seems you are the one who needs to learn what laissez-faire is all about and get back to us. I don't really blame you for not knowing though, with all the lies pushed on western cultures - for example, the title of Michael Moore's recent movie is a complete misnomer. Corruption (which should be the title) in political offices for the sake of businesses won't logically exist if the government is unable to intervene and help/harm companies anyway.

5) Absolutely. If your ideas involve the initiation of force against others, you have the right to have them but not to implement them. In a perfect world the latter would get you shot in self defense every time.

6) Yes, people fought (against aggressors) to bring about freedom, that's not contested. Nobody ever oppressed via the initiation of force to do the same, though.

7) "I hope" (I don't really, no need to be vindictive just because you're ignorant) you get fired because the state has decided your industry isn't of important value and provides disincentive to employers via taxes and hindering competition, then you have to live in a dilapidated building the state considers not too lavish and unfair, then you have to get very acquainted with the idea of a "bread line" for a few years, then you get cancer and (despite having been able to afford catastrophe insurance back when that was an option) the rationed public health system botches the operation or makes you wait so long for scans or treatment that you die/suffer/lose work all from something preventable/treatable... then you will realize what any economic system besides capitalism is all about.

As for trying to force others to pay my medical bills, part of not living for the sake of others means not having them live for mine.

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21 Feb 2010, 20:51
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Korea, Republic Of

Joined: 12 Feb 2010, 03:30
Posts: 47
Location: South Korea
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

The 'exploitation' part where folks have to work 12 hours a day for little pay also happened in America; it is a vital part of the industrial revolution. You just cannot escape it.

Certain generations of people lose themselves.

We have lived such rich and spoiled lives that it is ridiculous.

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22 Feb 2010, 02:38
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 20:39
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Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

Lets not hate rich people that probably earned their money through hard work, lets hate their spoiled fucking kids that think theyre better than everyone.

23 Feb 2010, 05:10
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United States

Joined: 11 Feb 2010, 21:23
Posts: 33
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

I've held some loaded folks in low regard. I'v held some poor folks in low regard. I've held some middle-class folks in low regard. I have never felt that I have the right to strip the property, by force, from another human.

23 Feb 2010, 05:27
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Joined: 21 Jan 2010, 06:08
Posts: 40
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

When you are poor,you have nothing to lose.And that's the way i like it. Fuck capitalism.
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23 Feb 2010, 06:23
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Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

By all means, stay poor if that's the way you like it, Tbag.

24 Feb 2010, 03:48
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Joined: 17 Dec 2009, 23:59
Posts: 259
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

Quote:
Equality at gunpoint would indeed be tyranny.

It's called a revolution, dumbass

And i recall you that your country is a ryranny because you got your independence by force.

Quote:
I am curious, do you have any regard for the American founding fathers? They were Libertarian and essentially trying to fulfill the closest thing to your ideals that has ever been done, minus that collectivist bullshit part.

And again i'll repeat : YOU KNOW ABSOLUTLY NOTHING OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT

If you think anarchism is what the founding fathers wanted to do, then start by learning what anarchism is.

Quote:
You should leave punk rock and join the Communist Party if this is all about politics for you.

I'm not a communist and i hate the communist party, again you're an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Keep thinking i'm a communist and i'll keep thinking you're a fucking nazi because you're anti-communist, both reasonnement being equally stupid.

Maybe YOU should leave the punk scene and join the Nazi Party ? They would love your amalgamic anti-communist ideas !

By the way punk is not only a fucking music, since the begginning punk scene was very close of anarchism.

Quote:
1) Lol, Bobby is a selfish asshole because he cares about his freedom. Classic. I have to admit that sounds like a great theme for propaganda for an aspiring tyrant trying to keep his subjects in line.

He's not a selfish asshole because he cares about his freedom HE'S A FUCKING SELFISH ASSHOLE BECAUSE HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OTHER'S FREEDOM !!!!

Quote:
2) I don't think you have evidence to suggest that Bobby is exploited or accepting of it. It's more likely that he made a deal with an employer because it benefits him, it's worth it. Hence the reason why true laissez-faire capitalism is the antithesis of exploitation: unless an uninformed party makes a mistake, all those voluntary interactions are, as Bobby's most recent post accurately portrays, mutually beneficial.

Do we have the choice to chose to be exploited by the capitalist system ? If we want to survive we must work and accept to be exploited by this system.

As soon as someone makes unfair profits over others work then IT IS exploitation

Quote:
3) Anarchy as in self-rule would indeed be a very high expression of freedom, but that's not what I have the biggest problem with. My beef is with communism, and initiation of force upon any group of innocent people... things very far from self-rule that some like to dress up and call it anarchy.

I said it many times and i'll say it again : i am STRONGLY against authoritarian communism.

A lot of anti-capitalist activists doesn't like me because i hate too much authoritarian communists

Communists who support URSS, china, lenin, trotsky, stalin, mao, pol pot, fidel castro or any other authoritarian communist have NOTHING TO DO WITH ANARCHISM and NOTHING TO DO WITH MY IDEAS !!

Quote:
4) I don't need to pretend anything, the US is not even close to an example of pure capitalism. Google 'mixed economy' please... it seems you are the one who needs to learn what laissez-faire is all about and get back to us. I don't really blame you for not knowing though, with all the lies pushed on western cultures - for example, the title of Michael Moore's recent movie is a complete misnomer. Corruption (which should be the title) in political offices for the sake of businesses won't logically exist if the government is unable to intervene and help/harm companies anyway.

I'm not saying it is "pure" capitalism, i'm saying it is CAPITALISM. End of the story.

What you are explaining about laissez-faire is about left or right IN THE CAPITALIST SYSTEM. A full "laissez-faire" is pure liberalist theory. Liberalism is all about stopping the state to stop interventions in the economy, free market dominated by the biggest multinationals in other words

Quote:
5) Absolutely. If your ideas involve the initiation of force against others, you have the right to have them but not to implement them. In a perfect world the latter would get you shot in self defense every time.

Ok then you don't have the right to apply a democratic election. It is as unfair as anarchism.

Democracy is about imposing views of the majority on a minority, and don't tell me that the ideas who get elected aren't imposed by force on others.

In a democratical system you vote for laws, then those laws are APPLIED BY FORCE AGAINST OTHERS.

In an anarchist society, we all decide together about what will be done on others.

If equally sharing the wealth of those exploiting others is bad, then the taxes and impots in a capitalist system IS A PURE RIP OFF AND TYRANNY !!!

Quote:
6) Yes, people fought (against aggressors) to bring about freedom, that's not contested. Nobody ever oppressed via the initiation of force to do the same, though.

You're playing on words, and i won't play that game with you.

Quote:
7) "I hope" (I don't really, no need to be vindictive just because you're ignorant) you get fired because the state has decided your industry isn't of important value and provides disincentive to employers via taxes and hindering competition, then you have to live in a dilapidated building the state considers not too lavish and unfair, then you have to get very acquainted with the idea of a "bread line" for a few years, then you get cancer and (despite having been able to afford catastrophe insurance back when that was an option) the rationed public health system botches the operation or makes you wait so long for scans or treatment that you die/suffer/lose work all from something preventable/treatable... then you will realize what any economic system besides capitalism is all about.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA you are so funny i'm almost rolling on the floor

I'm canadian so please fuck off and don't teach me lessons on the medical system. Come here and see how effective it is by yourself.

Plus you still didn't understand that if wealth was redistribued equally, YOU WOULD ACTUALLY BE MORE RICH THAN YOU ARE AND NOT THE OPPOSITE !!!

Quote:
As for trying to force others to pay my medical bills, part of not living for the sake of others means not having them live for mine.

It's called a public service, but brainwashed americans like you don't even know what it is.

Maybe you should also stop others to pay for the transports you use, for the reparation of roads, maybe we should also stop to force others to pay for the education of our childrens.

Maybe we should also privatise firefighters so if your house is on fire you have to pay them before they can extinguish it.

Definetly, you are an idiot.

Quote:
The 'exploitation' part where folks have to work 12 hours a day for little pay also happened in America; it is a vital part of the industrial revolution. You just cannot escape it.

Yes you can escape it. History has proven it. You're just too brainwashed and closed minded to realise it, or maybe too lazy to realize you'd have to fight for it.

Quote:
We have lived such rich and spoiled lives that it is ridiculous.

10% of the world is living in good conditions, so this excuse the other 90% living in bad conditions !

Quote:
I have never felt that I have the right to strip the property, by force, from another human.

You're an american : it's totally normal that you spend your whole life without the feeling that you have the right to be equal hahahaha

You're totally brainwashed !

Quote:
By all means, stay poor if that's the way you like it, Tbag.

There is no such thing as "povrety" or "rich peoples" when everyone is equal.

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24 Feb 2010, 07:44
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Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

HAHAHA

Rich people made you arguing .... i told you they are evil :D

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24 Feb 2010, 19:11
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Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

Quote:
And i recall you that your country is a ryranny because you got your independence by force.


Does not follow. What he spoke of (equality at gunpoint) is about the initiation of force against innocent parties. The American revolution was resistance to said initiation.

Don't get me wrong, I have no ethical quarrel with "revolution" by itself, the US government is certainly initiating force against citizens now. The problem is, after the revolution. If you'd initiate force against me for the goal of putting whatever wealth I make or earn for myself into the collective's pot, you would be a tyrant. You don't own me or my property - slavery is unethical.

Quote:
YOU KNOW ABSOLUTLY NOTHING OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT


No, he displayed very succinctly that he does know what he is talking about; he said "minus that collectivist bullshit part." The question is, do YOU know what that means?

Quote:
Keep thinking i'm a communist and i'll keep thinking you're a fucking nazi because you're anti-communist, both reasonnement being equally stupid.


Does not follow, and this has already been refuted.

Quote:
He's not a selfish asshole because he cares about his freedom HE'S A FUCKING SELFISH ASSHOLE BECAUSE HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OTHER'S FREEDOM !!!!


From what I can see, YES, HE DOES. Please refrain from trying to spin a rebuttal to the tune of claiming that you have the right to shoot your hypothetical boss and take the business he built over, or that such action is in any stretch of the imagination 'freedom.'

Quote:
Do we have the choice to chose to be exploited by the capitalist system ? If we want to survive we must work and accept to be exploited by this system.


You sound like a crybaby right now. "You must work [to eat]"... well no shit, food wouldn't magically appear in front of you if you lived in a cave, either. Although I would note that countries closest to capitalism have had the most charitable people in existence, so there are many people who don't work but get fed anyway; their quality of life isn't going to improve without hard work, but the option is there to bum it near a privately funded soup kitchen for the rest of your life.

You have every choice when it comes to capitalism: countries that are nearest capitalism don't put guns at the border pointing inwards like others do, you are free to leave, and in true capitalism whether and how much you do anything that doesn't initiate force or fraud against others, is entirely up to you and what you want to try to get out of it.

Quote:
As soon as someone makes unfair profits over others work then IT IS exploitation


I suppose we have a difference of opinion then, perhaps just at the definition of unfair... market interactions in capitalism are all voluntary; tacitly, they are also mutually beneficial and illustrate creation of wealth (not just moving wealth around). 40 hours of your time and labor is worth less to you than X dollars, so you sign a contract willingly (so its entirely your decision to accept as fair at that point) with someone to whom that X amount of money is worth less than Y amount of product/services. They trade up for Y, you trade up for X, and wealth has been created out of thin air.

Quote:
I said it many times and i'll say it again : i am STRONGLY against authoritarian communism.


I didn't bring up authoritarian communism, I brought up "initiation of force upon any group of people," which you claim to subscribe to.

Quote:
i'm saying it is CAPITALISM. End of the story.


It is not, it is a mixed economy. It has elements of both socialist and capitalist economies. End of the story.

Quote:
Ok then you don't have the right to apply a democratic election. It is as unfair as anarchism.

Democracy is about imposing views of the majority on a minority, and don't tell me that the ideas who get elected aren't imposed by force on others.


You clearly have not been paying attention. What good things have I said about democracy? I DO NOT SUPPORT DIRECT DEMOCRACY. DEMOCRACY ITSELF WAS FIRST DEFINED AS A BAD THING. I DO NOT SUPPORT INITIATION OF FORCE OR FRAUD, WHETHER IT'S 51% SUPPORTED, OR 99.999% SUPPORTED.

Quote:
If equally sharing the wealth of those exploiting others is bad, then the taxes and impots in a capitalist system IS A PURE RIP OFF AND TYRANNY !!!


Thank you, now you're starting to get it. Involuntary taxation is not capitalism, and it is not ethical; we agree, it's tyranny. All interactions between free adults should be voluntary, until you initiate force or fraud on someone (making their part of the interaction involuntary), and incur retaliation and punishment (as no longer a free man).

Quote:
You're playing on words, and i won't play that game with you.


No, that argument is not about semantics. It's about ethics. There is a right time and a wrong time to use violence, and I won't play any game that oversimplifies the reasons why.

Quote:
Come here and see how effective it is by yourself.


No thanks, I can see that it is very ineffective from here, and I'd rather not be treated like a subject and 2nd class citizen (2nd behind a dog or cat, who can legally get a scan or test quickly).

Quote:
Plus you still didn't understand that if wealth was redistribued equally, YOU WOULD ACTUALLY BE MORE RICH THAN YOU ARE AND NOT THE OPPOSITE !!!


The way the economy would become stagnant and less innovative, and the wealth-creation machine would disappear, the vast majority of us would eventually be poorer than otherwise, but even that doesn't matter one bit; I don't want to steal other peoples' property. "I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

Quote:
Maybe you should also stop others to pay for the transports you use, for the reparation of roads, maybe we should also stop to force others to pay for the education of our childrens.


YES! He finally gets it! Initiation of force is wrong, and ends never justify the means. Any products or services that I could obtain via my earned wealth should be my own decision, not forced upon me by the state and taxation via the barrel of a gun.

Quote:
Maybe we should also privatise firefighters so if your house is on fire you have to pay them before they can extinguish it.


Or instead of pretending like a free market is somehow constrained by bureaucratic forced simplicity, we can admit that much more tricky situations that this are handled easily every day. Already be on a contractual basis with them, or just have an insurance company that is on a contractual basis with them (probably easier to make a monthly rate in that situation); I'm quite sure every insurance company involved in your whole neighborhood would want it put out quickly. Police and military can still have/assume the rescue components (esp with what for all they know could be a crime in progress) but they're not going to bail your property out if you didn't take proper responsibility and care for it.

Quote:
the right to be equal


You only have the right to pursue your happiness, not to be given it. There is no right to be made equal in property by the state, because it is wholly contradictory to the nature of rights themselves. A right is what limits others from interfering with you, so NOTHING that demands something of others can be a right. You can't have the right to force someone else to stitch you up if you cut your leg, because that would invalidate their right to their own life and own work. That supposed right denies the existence of all real rights (those are things that draw a small circle around you and say: "leave me alone, I'm a free man", thus guaranteeing your choice of decisions to run your own life, ie those which do not enter the next man's circle and infringe on his rights with force or fraud).

Quote:
There is no such thing as "povrety" or "rich peoples" when everyone is equal.


Even if you mean relative poverty, you are still incorrect for practical purposes. North Korean citizens outside of special categories are for the most part equal to eachother, but they are all relatively impoverished compared to the citizens of industrialized countries who are not forced to be equal in property. Even the 'poor' in those countries; here's what it means to be under the poverty line in America:

Quote:
* Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
* Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
* Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
* The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
* Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
* Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
* Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
* Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

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24 Feb 2010, 19:14
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Posts: 33
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

cstovx covered everything and more than I would have, in a very effective way. Nothing to add, really. Good job.

24 Feb 2010, 20:13
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Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

Quote:
Does not follow. What he spoke of (equality at gunpoint) is about the initiation of force against innocent parties. The American revolution was resistance to said initiation.

You're playing with words again.

An anti-capitalist revolution would be resistance to the initiation of capitalism ;)

Quote:
If you'd initiate force against me for the goal of putting whatever wealth I make or earn for myself into the collective's pot, you would be a tyrant. You don't own me or my property - slavery is unethical.

Proprety is theft, not the opposite.

You still don't understand that you would not have LESS money, you would have MORE money....

If the vast majority of the workers from where you work agree to be paid equally, then you're just a fucking idiot if you see tyranny. Majority is the basis of a direct democracy.

Quote:
From what I can see, YES, HE DOES. Please refrain from trying to spin a rebuttal to the tune of claiming that you have the right to shoot your hypothetical boss and take the business he built over, or that such action is in any stretch of the imagination 'freedom.'

No he does not care about others, he doesnt care if peoples die because they got no money to pay their medical bills and he got absolutly no notion of helping each others out and solidarity. Again, typically american.

Quote:
You sound like a crybaby right now. "You must work [to eat]"... well no shit, food wouldn't magically appear in front of you if you lived in a cave, either. Although I would note that countries closest to capitalism have had the most charitable people in existence, so there are many people who don't work but get fed anyway; their quality of life isn't going to improve without hard work, but the option is there to bum it near a privately funded soup kitchen for the rest of your life.

A crybaby ? You're a fucking dumbass.

I'm not talking about work, i'm talking about capitalism

You understand absolutly NOTHING, this is one of the most stupid debates i had in my whole life and this is pathetic.

If you'd understand 1% of what anarchism is you'd unserstand that it is based on the working class

What i'm saying is that today, in a capitalist system, you don't have the choice to work and get exploited AND YOU CAN'T PRETEND OTHERWISE

Quote:
You have every choice when it comes to capitalism: countries that are nearest capitalism don't put guns at the border pointing inwards like others do, you are free to leave, and in true capitalism whether and how much you do anything that doesn't initiate force or fraud against others, is entirely up to you and what you want to try to get out of it.

Yeah like sarkozy said "you like the france or you quit it" !!! You're as moronic as him !!!

Now THIS IS tyranny. Imposing by force a point of view and then saying "if you're not happy, then leave!!"

Quote:
I suppose we have a difference of opinion then, perhaps just at the definition of unfair... market interactions in capitalism are all voluntary; tacitly, they are also mutually beneficial and illustrate creation of wealth (not just moving wealth around). 40 hours of your time and labor is worth less to you than X dollars, so you sign a contract willingly (so its entirely your decision to accept as fair at that point) with someone to whom that X amount of money is worth less than Y amount of product/services. They trade up for Y, you trade up for X, and wealth has been created out of thin air.

Again : you are stupid.

We DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER CHOICE THAN SIGN THE "contract" AND BE EXPLOITED

Stop pretending because peoples are FORCED to live that way it's because they ACCEPT it

There is no alternative to the capitalist system in a capitalist society, you can't live another way unless you do like the zapatists : take weapons, build your own community, and defend it.

BTW i suggest you read a little about EZLN and Zapatists maybe you would be less stupid after, and realize that weapons and retaking what belongs to us is NOT tyranny. The zapatists is an army with weapons and all, BUT they are non-violent and they will not impose anything nor will they attack before they get attacked.
But to you, a brainwashed american like you, you probably think they are terrorists or members of the Red Army who want to take over america with evil communism !!


Quote:
I didn't bring up authoritarian communism, I brought up "initiation of force upon any group of people," which you claim to subscribe to.

Democracy is "initiation of force upon any group of people"
United States is "initiation of force upon any group of people"
Your boss is "initiation of force upon any group of people"
The shop where you work "initiation of force upon any group of people"
Electing a president is "initiation of force upon any group of people"
American Independence is "initiation of force upon any group of people"

Quote:
Quote:
i'm saying it is CAPITALISM. End of the story.

It is not, it is a mixed economy. It has elements of both socialist and capitalist economies. End of the story.

Definatly, there is no hope you will understand something.

You pretend THE WORLD'S MOST CAPITALIST COUNTRY IN THE WHOLE HISTORY is not capitalist, this is fucking funny !!!

I don't care if it has a little socialism, the facts are that this country perfectly match the definition of capitalism.

United States are not capitalist!!! HAHAHAHAH this is so fucking funny.... don't you feel stupid after re-reading yourself ??

Quote:
You clearly have not been paying attention. What good things have I said about democracy? I DO NOT SUPPORT DIRECT DEMOCRACY. DEMOCRACY ITSELF WAS FIRST DEFINED AS A BAD THING. I DO NOT SUPPORT INITIATION OF FORCE OR FRAUD, WHETHER IT'S 51% SUPPORTED, OR 99.999% SUPPORTED.

Uhhh....

So you're against communism, you're against democracy, you're against anarchism and you're against dictatorship...

THEN WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU SUGGEST ??? You're another fucking moron who think everything is bad but doesn't have any solution

IT IS BETTER TO LIGHT A CANDLE THAN TO COMPLAINT ABOUT THE DARKNESS

What if united states turned into a fascist state like the 3rd reich ?? You would still not support 99.999% of the peoples fighting against it ?? And also what do you think about the second world war ??? Maybe you think we should ignore the nazis and not fight them ??

ALL YOUR IDEAS ARE CONTRADICTORY !!!


Quote:
Thank you, now you're starting to get it. Involuntary taxation is not capitalism, and it is not ethical; we agree, it's tyranny. All interactions between free adults should be voluntary, until you initiate force or fraud on someone (making their part of the interaction involuntary), and incur retaliation and punishment (as no longer a free man).

Then who makes the roads ? Who build the schools ? Who pay the firefighters ? Who assure security ? Who brings you electricity ? Who pays all those services ??

You keep talking and talking and talking.... But nothing makes sense

Quote:
There is a right time and a wrong time to use violence, and I won't play any game that oversimplifies the reasons why.

Another contradiction.

A few lines above you just said you would never support the imposition of force even if 99.999% of the peoples support it, and now you said "there is a right time to use violence"

You say something then you pretend the opposite...

Quote:
No thanks, I can see that it is very ineffective from here, and I'd rather not be treated like a subject and 2nd class citizen (2nd behind a dog or cat, who can legally get a scan or test quickly).

lololol fucking closed minded and brainwashed american, you're so funny...

Start by watching "Sicko" by michael moore or something

Definatly you're an ignorant, Canadian medical system is one of the best in the world.

Socialist medecine also proved its efficienty in Cuba and other countrys.... But you probably never heard of that because you've been brainwashed by years and years of anti-communist propaganda

Quote:
"I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

The rich peoples you defend are asking other men to live their life for their's.

And when you work and get exploited, you live your life for the sake of a rich man.

You're blind, confused, ignorant, and very contradictory.


Quote:
Quote:
Maybe you should also stop others to pay for the transports you use, for the reparation of roads, maybe we should also stop to force others to pay for the education of our childrens.

YES! He finally gets it! Initiation of force is wrong, and ends never justify the means. Any products or services that I could obtain via my earned wealth should be my own decision, not forced upon me by the state and taxation via the barrel of a gun.

Wowwww not we reach the most ridiculous part.

If we follow your ideas, there would be no roads anymore, no trains, no buses, no security, no firefighters, no water to drink, no electricity, no school, NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING

You don't even realize all those precious social gains and you'd be ready to remove everything without thinking of the consequences. THIS IS TYPICALLY RIGHT WING MENTALITY.

Who build the fucking roads without anyone paying for them ??

Quote:
Quote:
Maybe we should also privatise firefighters so if your house is on fire you have to pay them before they can extinguish it.

Or instead of pretending like a free market is somehow constrained by bureaucratic forced simplicity, we can admit that much more tricky situations that this are handled easily every day. Already be on a contractual basis with them, or just have an insurance company that is on a contractual basis with them (probably easier to make a monthly rate in that situation); I'm quite sure every insurance company involved in your whole neighborhood would want it put out quickly. Police and military can still have/assume the rescue components (esp with what for all they know could be a crime in progress) but they're not going to bail your property out if you didn't take proper responsibility and care for it.

ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahaha this one of the most funny idea i ever seen....

let's privatise everything !! no money, no future !!

Quote:
You only have the right to pursue your happiness, not to be given it.

Who are you to say what right we have to be happy or not ?

Quote:
* Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
* Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
* Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
* The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
* Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
* Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
* Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
* Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

Funny, you forgot to mention how many of the Forty-six percent of peoples owning homes actually finished to pay them.

United States economy always encouraged peoples to borrow money and buy houses, and if they can't pay it the bank will take it back, this is a fact.

Now here is the REAL stats (i translated from french, sorry):


- the 225 most rich peoples have a wealth equalling the common wealth of 47% of the poorest peoples of the world (3 billion of peoples)

- In USA, the 100 most important companys earn 1000 times more than their workers

- The wealth of bill gates equals the common wealth of 106 millions poor americans

- 4/5 of the population live under the bar of povrety. 2.8 billions can't have education (and you want to privatise it !!!)

- The 10 richest persons of the world own the same wealth than ALL under-developped countrys together

- 20% of the world own 80% of the wealth

- Multinationals own 80% of the world commerce

- Between 1980 and 1993, the 500 biggest multinationals removed 4,4 millions of jobs (and you pretend they are cool because they bring us jobs !!!)

- Biggest multinationals own 31 billions of $ but with only 13 billions of dollar we could FEED AND EDUCATE THE WHOLE WORLD. But americans prefer to spend over 25 billions per year on stupid cosmetic products and pet-care when their neightboor are dying of hunger.

- We can't find the 80 billions $ needed to bring public services to all countrys in the world, but take only 7 rich persons and you got more than 80billions

- There are 850 millions peoples who can't read and 110 millions of children who can't even get a basis education. (and you don't even realize how priviligied you are to have free education system, you want to privatise it !!)

- 17 millions of children die every year because of the lack of medical services (and you support a system where you have to pay to get medical services!!)

- 20% of the children of the world don't have education and 250 millions of the are forced to work in sweetshops led by the multinationals YOU support

- Only in France there is 500,000 homeless peoples, but there is over 2 millions empty houses and appartments.

- If everyone consumed as much stupid stuff like the americans do, we would need 5 planets to produce enough for our needs







Those numbers date from 1999 and the situation is WORSE today. All sources are quoted on the website "Subsociety"

YOU'RE GUILTY FOR EACH ONE OF THOSE STATISTICS BECAUSE YOU SUPPORT THE SYTEM IN PLACE. YOU HAVE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS, THE TYRAN IS YOU.


Quote:
cstovx covered everything and more than I would have, in a very effective way. Nothing to add, really. Good job.

How fucking pathetic, you can't even argue on your own.

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26 Feb 2010, 00:12
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 02:51
Posts: 16
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

ungovernable wrote:
You're playing with words again.

An anti-capitalist revolution would be resistance to the initiation of capitalism ;)


It's not a play with words just because you don't understand the phrase, about a known philosophical axiom. Capitalism =/= force. Using force in response to capitalism is therefore not retaliation, but initiation of force. Initiation of force is wrong. I've got no problem with you revolting against an aggressor like a taxing government, but when it's over don't expect to take all the innocent people's shit too.

Quote:
Proprety is theft, not the opposite.


False, property is not theft. Property is a basic extension of your right to your own life. Your own body is your property, for one. If property is theft, then resisting rape is theft.

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No he does not care about others, he doesnt care if peoples die because they got no money to pay their medical bills and he got absolutly no notion of helping each others out and solidarity. Again, typically american.


It's funny you say that about Americans, the most charitable nation of people in the world. I care about helping people a lot, and while I'm mentioning it everyone should really check out kiva.org, it's the best way to help I've ever seen. The difference is, I don't care for forcing other people to help at gunpoint, that's not charity; they should decide if and how much themselves.

Quote:
Yeah like sarkozy said "you like the france or you quit it" !!! You're as moronic as him !!!

Now THIS IS tyranny. Imposing by force a point of view and then saying "if you're not happy, then leave!!"


No, the difference is everything I said was based off of not forcing anything upon you. And it wasn't all about leaving the country, it was about choosing whatever you want to do. In fact, in real capitalism you could go live on a small farm and attempt to make it a commune with your buddies, if you can avoid needing contracts that could fuck you over if not followed, in my ideal system you wouldn't necessarily wind up paying the government a cent. The only time anyone would come after you is if you initiated force against someone for his property or his part of the land, if he had a part and you kick him out.

Quote:
We DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER CHOICE THAN SIGN THE "contract" AND BE EXPLOITED


Yes, you do. You can do anything you want that doesn't initiate force or fraud against others. Soup kitchen, subsistence farming, retreatist commune, eat your own feces, I don't care. Just don't rob anyone.

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retaking what belongs to us is NOT tyranny


If you were robbed I would condone retaliation, but you weren't.

Quote:
Democracy is "initiation of force upon any group of people"


Direct democracy generally is, and most 'democracies' are, but theoretically a properly checked democracy could be unable to initiate force even with 99% of the vote.

Quote:
United States is "initiation of force upon any group of people"


Yup.

Quote:
Your boss is "initiation of force upon any group of people"


Nope. Some bosses get a little help though, the government sometimes initiates force upon others so that it benefits particular businesses (exposing a given system to not be capitalism).

Quote:
The shop where you work "initiation of force upon any group of people"


Nope. See above.

Quote:
Electing a president is "initiation of force upon any group of people"


Again, not in an of itself. If that president has the authority to initiate force on innocents, it can be.

Quote:
American Independence is "initiation of force upon any group of people"


Nope. Retaliation, not initiation.

Quote:
You pretend THE WORLD'S MOST CAPITALIST COUNTRY IN THE WHOLE HISTORY is not capitalist, this is fucking funny !!!


Is "the most anarchist" country in the world today really anarchist to you? Where's that, so I can laugh at it?

Quote:
United States are not capitalist!!! HAHAHAHAH this is so fucking funny.... don't you feel stupid after re-reading yourself ??


One day in the very distant future you may come to open your eyes beyond that which you have been fed. For now I'll be happy just to see the ad-hominem toned down a bit... you waste a lot of keystrokes levying insults that probably just hurt your argument among neutrals. After seeing that thread complaining about these arguments I've resolved to remove what little abrasiveness I was using, but somehow I don't think I was the big problem of aggression and divisiveness that was mentioned. I'm trying to discuss this with a civil tone.

Quote:
So you're against communism, you're against democracy, you're against anarchism and you're against dictatorship


Pretty much, the democratic process can be useful but democracy itself (today usually referred to as 'direct-' or 'pure-') I am indeed against, as with the others.

Quote:
THEN WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU SUGGEST ???


Hey you're almost to the point that you know enough to know you don't know everything, and don't have me figured out yet, maybe the assuming I'm a brainwashed follower of some American pundit will stop...

Quote:
You're another fucking moron who think everything is bad but doesn't have any solution


... and nope, you ruined it, still making a conclusion before having a grasp of the evidence.

Yes, I do have a solution. Have a country based on an 'ironclad' constitution, that indefinitely limits government to very very specific tasks. Authorize the government only to protect individual rights against the initiation of force and fraud, and specify that it must follow those rules too, using force only in justified reaction to aggressive threats per the non-aggression principle. The government also must raise funds to pay for these only through voluntary interactions, like everyone else; it sets up a mutually beneficial system in which the safe and secure nature of contract law earns the government a percentage from creditors and lenders. It's a limited amount of income (thus limited burden on the economy), but an even more limited cost of responsibilities, so it more than evens out for protecting rights as best it can within reason.

Quote:
What if united states turned into a fascist state like the 3rd reich ?? You would still not support 99.999% of the peoples fighting against it ?? And also what do you think about the second world war ??? Maybe you think we should ignore the nazis and not fight them ??

ALL YOUR IDEAS ARE CONTRADICTORY !!!


No, they are not. Fighting a fascist state isn't initiation of force - it's not that 99% of people agree with it that makes it good, it's objective ethics that makes it good. Fighting a fascist state would still be good even if only 1% agreed with it; 99% would be wrong. It was right to enter WWII, and it would have been right even if most people disagreed; ethics are objective.

Quote:
Then who makes the roads ? Who build the schools ? Who pay the firefighters ? ... Who brings you electricity ? Who pays all those services ??


Individuals entering into mutually beneficial interactions with each other, in some ways similar to when schools weren't built by governments. Some of these that involve the livability of surrounding areas would very likely be tied to rent/home/land/insurance contracts, since they affect the worth of living spaces to sellers' and landlords' advantages, and because buyers and renters are going to be more uneasy about putting money down on an unsure thing.

Wow, for an anarchist you do seem to act dependent on the government.

Quote:
Who assure security ?


The government can run security operations that expressly defends and protects the rights of its citizens.

Quote:
Another contradiction.

A few lines above you just said you would never support the imposition of force even if 99.999% of the peoples support it, and now you said "there is a right time to use violence"

You say something then you pretend the opposite...
Quote:

No, this is not a contradiction. Violence is not inherently wrong. Force is not inherently wrong. These things are routinely used in ethical ways. What is inherently wrong, as I wrote but you failed to see or quote correctly, is that the INITIATION of force is inherently wrong. Party A (lets say Hitler) initiates force (bad) by ordering his SS to kill or capture all the German Jews. Party B (the German Jews) retaliate with force (good) by assassinating Hitler. In this hypothetical situation, both used violence and force, but Hitler was wrong because he initiated it, and the Jews were right because it was retaliation to Hitler's initiation.

Quote:
Start by watching "Sicko" by michael moore or something


You start by watching Dead Meat, The Lemon, Stephen Crowder's undercover revelations, A Short Course in Brain Surgery, ReasonTV's mini-documentary, Two Women, and The Barbarian Invasions (DVD, Canadian, 2 Cannes Film Festival awards).

Michael Moore is an imbecile and a hack that alternates between the misleading and the straight-up-lies. Even an MTV news anchor was able to tear his b.s. to shreds.

Quote:
Socialist medecine also proved its efficienty in Cuba and other countrys


Dude, they have a drastically 2-tiered system there. There's the health care system that 'important' Cubans and guests get (including PAYING customers, for those that aren't useful for political or propaganda purposes), which is what Michael Moore got to see, and then there's the health care system for the 'rabble,' extremely shitty.

Quote:
The rich peoples you defend are asking other men to live their life for their's.


No, not the ones I defend. Some rich people do, you're right, corporate welfare is as real as poverty welfare, but I don't support it and it's not capitalism.

Quote:
If we follow your ideas, there would be no roads anymore, no trains, no buses, no security, no firefighters, no water to drink, no electricity, no school, NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING


You have zero evidence for this (those things have/can/will happen without government buying them), and it goes against all rational thought (not to mention many atheist sensibilities). If most people want roads, trains, buses, firefighters, tap water, electricity, and school enough to pay for them (a lesser number want it enough to be taxed into paying for them), they will happen. It's supply and demand, only when it's not demanded through votes and through government it's a hell of a lot less wasteful and more innovative. As for security, that is a legitimate role of government, unlike the others.

Quote:
ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahaha this one of the most funny idea i ever seen....


Do you realize every time you send off surprised insults you prove your own ignorance via your previous attempts to diminish my arguments by acting as if you have heard them all, as if it's clearly another brainwashed 'merican statist/right-winger?

I'm glad this is new to you, it means you have more to learn and are less stuck in your political ways than someone who doesn't hear new arguments very often.

Quote:
Who are you to say what right we have to be happy or not ?


Someone who understands the Enlightenment period and can accurately convey the concept of rights. You do have the right to be happy as long as it does not impact anyone else involuntarily. Hence, you have the right to pursue your happiness, nobody is obligated to provide it for you.

Quote:
United States economy always encouraged peoples to borrow money and buy houses, and if they can't pay it the bank will take it back, this is a fact.


The United States government has been doing that encouragement in recent decades, yes. This artificial incentive is indeed a tragedy, it's shortsighted, wrong, not capitalist, harmful to all involved, and the cause of this current fuck-up we're in.

Quote:
YOU'RE GUILTY FOR EACH ONE OF THOSE STATISTICS BECAUSE YOU SUPPORT THE SYTEM IN PLACE. YOU HAVE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS, THE TYRAN IS YOU.


LOL, dude did you miss the part where I said revolution can be justifiable by now? You can't just tie me to some mixed economy country and blame me for everything, I don't support any country in place, I am not for mixed economies. I would drastically change things if I had the chance, but my power to is limited at this time. We'll just have to wait and see if peaceful means will work or it gets worse and more people get pissed off enough.

Quote:
How fucking pathetic, you can't even argue on your own.


I did cover things that weren't addressed to me, so he's not pathetic at all. I don't think your aggressive vitriol is helping you here.

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26 Feb 2010, 05:54
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Joined: 17 Dec 2009, 23:59
Posts: 259
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

I'm done argueing with you, i'm wasting my time talking to a brainwashed moron who refuse to hear anything.

You don't know anything about capitalism, and even less about anarchism. Stop acting like you know politics, you are a fucking ignorant.

Your ideas are full of contradictions, you are a very confused person who is against everything and can't suggest better.

You want to privatise everything and remove all public services, you still have to explain how the basis services will be assured and how it will be paid. Government ? With what money if not from taxes ?

Seriously dude, talk less and read more.

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26 Feb 2010, 05:58
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Joined: 11 Feb 2010, 21:23
Posts: 33
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

"I'm done argueing with you, i'm wasting my time talking to a brainwashed moron who refuse to hear anything."
Your ass was handed to you and you quit.

"You want to privatise everything and remove all public services, you still have to explain how the basis services will be assured and how it will be paid. Government ? With what money if not from taxes ?"

You radical anarchist, you.

Explain how your system would work, please.


Really, how does your Utopia function?


26 Feb 2010, 06:22
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 02:51
Posts: 16
Post  Re: Fuck "Eat the rich"

I think it's most fair to say I know more about capitalism, and you know more about anarchy. That only makes sense, given we should probably know a fair amount about the ideologies we are, and what have been arguing for/developing for years now.

That's fine if you're done with our chat, but if you think I've failed to hear and address something as your last post indicates, I'll have at it (usually these kinds of things are mutually informative, so I don't have a problem with it or you).

I'm not a moron, nor 'an' ignorant, nor brainwashed in the slightest, and I do know more than my fair share about politics. Despite that slander, I hope to talk to you again; maybe in another debate we can find ourselves more civil and learn more... or at least get better at the art of debate.

Peace, brother.

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26 Feb 2010, 06:28
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