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Plato's cave: brought to you by Sayzak
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Ripvil
Joined: 03 Feb 2011, 10:28
Posts: 192
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Sayzak didn't appreciate my critique of Plato, so he spent an hour trying to convince me that Plato is worth reading. At the end, his first point is the only thing I will concede, other than that the strongest arguments he had all involved Socrates, and I don't believe that Socrates is reason enough to read Plato. But yeah, the allegory of the cave is undeniably worth reading. But, instead of wasting your time reading entire volumes for this one helpful story, here's a three-minute video.
Damn. I always forget you can't embed videos on here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69F7GhASOdM
Are you a prisoner?
_________________
"Liberty,as we all know,cannot flourish in a country that is permanently on a war footing, or even a near war footing.Permanent crisis justifies permanent control of everybody and everything by the agencies of central government."
Aldous Huxley
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| 13 Jul 2011, 17:51 |
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SGTKPF
Joined: 04 Jul 2011, 13:10
Posts: 11
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Re: Plato's cave: brought to you by Sayzak
Context is everything. This is always true, and is so much more true with something as profound as Plato's cave. For this reason, if you feel Plato's Cave is a necessary read, then it follows that Republic as a whole is a necessary read. If only to examine the foundations for the idea, and more importantly, the consequences of the idea of the cave. A 3-minute video simply doesn't do justice to one of the greatest works of Philosophy of all time.
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| 17 Jul 2011, 23:25 |
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Ripvil
Joined: 03 Feb 2011, 10:28
Posts: 192
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Re: Plato's cave: brought to you by Sayzak
Lol, you mean what is, in your opinion, one of the greatest works of philosophy of all time. I admit, if this was 2200 years ago, it would be great, I would be impressed with Plato. In our day, however, Plato is rarely valid.
I would not waste my time reading the entire Republic, had I not already done so. Protagoras, in my opinion, is the closest thing to a necessary read within Plato's works, but there are dozens of more modern, more logical books that approach the same issue so much better. It's like reading Homer when I could be reading Dostoevsky. Homer is great for having existed almost 3000 years ago, however, we now have Nietzsche and Sartre, Einstein, Voltaire, Huxley, Paine, Jefferson, Locke, Kant, Rand, to be more concise, we have a million authors which are, in my opinion, a million times more worth reading than Plato or Homer, 2200-3000 years after their deaths. If you're going to study an ancient Greek atleast make it the greatest one--whom Plato hated and stole ideas from--Democritus. Xenophon is also much more interesting than Plato, in my opinion.
In my opinion, the only reason to read Plato or Homer is because you want to be able to make references to them to make yourself seem more witty. I admit, this is why I read them when I was younger. And it certainly works, but you could probably waste that time accomplishing something a little more useful.
_________________
"Liberty,as we all know,cannot flourish in a country that is permanently on a war footing, or even a near war footing.Permanent crisis justifies permanent control of everybody and everything by the agencies of central government."
Aldous Huxley
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| 18 Jul 2011, 19:47 |
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CrustGrrrl
Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 14:59
Posts: 166
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Re: Plato's cave: brought to you by Sayzak
If something isn't valid or even somewhat related to modern Times, It is a useless Philosophy. " but you could probably waste that time accomplishing something a little more useful." - This is basically as far as this goes.
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| 18 Jul 2011, 21:18 |
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SGTKPF
Joined: 04 Jul 2011, 13:10
Posts: 11
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Re: Plato's cave: brought to you by Sayzak
Ripvil,
I certainly must thank you. You gave me a gigantic laugh, YOU advocating the reading of Locke, Jefferson, Paine, and Rand (I assume you meant Ayn.) Firstly, I strongly disagree with the assertion that we should only read Modern or Post-Modern writings. There are clearly timeless values espoused in ancient writing, albeit you can argue about whether Plato qualifies. And Homer clearly qualifies. His epics were simply great stories. As for Plato, you haven't really spelled out what it is that you feel makes his writings so worthless. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this was for the purpose of brevity. That being said, Plato offers many indirect benefits. There is value in reading him if only for the connections with Aristotle, the greatest Philosopher of all time. While I assume that you'll have something dispariging to say about him as well, I would like to point out that he is the father of logic as we understand it, something you should be a fan of, considering how often you praise logic. Furthermore, while Democritus had some insightful philosophical ideas, he was more impactful in science than philosophy. And for future notice, I wouldn't suggest leading by telling me to include my opinion on who is a great philosopher... and then labeling someone the greatest Ancient Greek philosopher. Finally, it's a bit nonsensical to say there is NO reason to read Homer or Plato. Homer's works, as works of fiction, are enjoyable, even if not great philosophical works. Same reason I read Fitzgerald, Bronte, or either of the Adams'. And even if you prioritize Plato's works pretty low on the reading list, I'm sure there are things you do that are less beneficial, as we all do.
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| 22 Jul 2011, 07:06 |
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Ripvil
Joined: 03 Feb 2011, 10:28
Posts: 192
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Re: Plato's cave: brought to you by Sayzak
Lol, good, I love to make people laugh. I don't have to agree 100% with someone to agree with many of their assertions, that would be pretty silly. I'd have the perspective of a tunicate if that were the case.
Plato had a few good ideas, but he was over-all an ignorant ass. He told the scientists not to look at the stars or study nature, but that they should simply think about it. He advocated burning the books of Democritus while stealing his words and re-printing them in the guise of Socrates.(According to Bertrand Russell) All this because Democritus was the greatest scientist of all time, the ideas of Democritus(which mostly turned out to be true) contradicted Plato. Plato could not handle contradiction. Every one of Plato's good ideas has been re-printed and more intelligently espoused a thousand times over, without all the underlying ignorance, therefore I think we should read those works instead of Plato. It is, as a matter of course, a personal choice, I'm simply giving my opinion.
You can consider Aristotle the father of logic if you'd like, but then you'll have to consider Socrates the grandfather. And then Democritus the great-grandfather and Leucippus the great-great. Aristotle had some good things to say too, but once again Nietzsche(just to name a single, and one of my personal favourite examples) tore apart the philosophy of Aristotle and said everything much better. In my opinion.
Lol, sorry I didn't write "in my opinion" after that idea, I thought it was well-understood that everything I say is an opinion. The funniest part about that comment is that I thought of putting it there too, but realized that I had already said "in my opinion" enough times in that particular reply. Saying Democritus wasn't a great philosopher is silly, many of the things you think Socrates said were paraphrased from his work. A few examples:
"To a wise man, the whole earth is open; for the native land of a good soul is the whole earth."
"If your desires are not great, a little will seem much to you; for small appetite makes poverty equivalent to wealth."(this is the idea Socrates lived by, if he existed)
"No power and no treasure can outweigh the extension of our knowledge."
"Many much-learned men have no intelligence."
"We know nothing accurately in reality, but [only] as it changes according to the bodily condition, and the constitution of those things that flow upon [the body] and impinge upon it."
"Strength of body is nobility only in beasts of burden, strength of character is nobility in man."
"Coition is a slight attack of apoplexy. For man gushes forth from man, and is separated by being torn apart with a kind of blow."
I do less beneficial things, but if I didn't do those things I wouldn't be reading anyway. If I wasn't reading Plato, however, I would be reading something that, in my opinion, benefits me more.
_________________
"Liberty,as we all know,cannot flourish in a country that is permanently on a war footing, or even a near war footing.Permanent crisis justifies permanent control of everybody and everything by the agencies of central government."
Aldous Huxley
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| 28 Jul 2011, 17:23 |
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